:: Bersa Talk ::

In the Army, they just said "Here's the ammo - load two magazines and move to the firing line," so I didn't learn about fps and bullet weight.  Now there are a lot of choices, and I don't have a clue.

This is the context for my questions:  Bersa 380cc, close range (2-8 yards), stopping power is the main issue, moderate price comes next.  I assume we're only going to be considering hollow point rounds.

1. Is faster better for stopping power?

2. Is heavier better for stopping power?

3. Which is more important to stopping power at that range - speed or weight?

I've read enough threads here to know Michael T prefers DPX (for its expansion) . . . . 

M D "Doc" Nugent

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M D "Doc" Nugent - carcentric.com

Ideally, what your looking for is something called "twin tasks"

Basically it's penetration and destroying something that's vital to the body/ life.

So it's a little bit like Goldilocks: not too fast but, not too slow, not too big but, not too small!

Expansion should open like a flower petal and stay that way..... the better to cut away at those vitals my dear!

The right combination ?????????  Well, let the posts begin!

RT

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VERITAS AEQUITAS

Spread is a major concern, that is why people on the forum tend to like Corbon DPX as it appears to offer the most reliable finished spread, other premium hollowpoints tend to vary greatly in final bullet caliber.  (Personally, I haven't done this test... but have read reports of people that have... your mileage may vary).  Spread directly affects the wound channel, generally bigger the better, meaning you increase the possibility to cause damage to nervous systems or vital organs.  (This is all under the assumption that you have enough energy to get the penetration that is needed...  read on)

Now, if spread is equal, lets get back to bullet weight vs. velocity.  Generally you are going to want to hit the BG with as much ENERGY as possible.  If you pull out the high school physics books, you'll come to find out E = (1/2)M*V^2.   (Where M = Mass, V = Velocity).  I don't know how to post a 3d graph, (nor generate one...).  But the idea is that if the mass of the bullet is the same then the Energy is going to increase exponentially with increase in velocity.  If you want'ed to compare hollow points of different weight and speed I would use the above equation as a base line.  Obviously which ever produces the greatest amount of energy would be the best. 

Last thing to consider is the standard deviation of the loads, if you read most ballistic tables (the good ones at least) they will report the deviation (in speed... mass should be uniform).  You need to take this into consideration as well...  Obviously if you find a brand that has a great average speed but high standard deviation, you run the risk that your bullet fired could be lower in speed and not producing the expected result. 
Since gun fights tend to be solved (generally... hopefully your not using a glock) after relatively few shots fired your high deviation bullets could be weak...  when compared to more tightly controlled bullets. 


Most importantly there is no magic bullet...  Placement counts, you can have a nuclear war head in .380, but if you can't hit the broad side of a barn...  then it doesn't matter.   Any bullet in the right place can kill and drop BG's.  So always remember to practice. 

Dallas_Dave:

Spread is a major concern, that is why people on the forum tend to like Corbon DPX . . . . Now, if spread is equal, . . .

Yeah, let's just say there are four Corbon DPX's available (I don't know if that's true or not):
- a 10% faster, 10% lighter one
- a 10% faster, 10% heavier one
- a 10% slower, 10% lighter one and
- a 10% slower, 10% heavier one.

Dallas_Dave:

. . .  lets get back to bullet weight vs. velocity.  Generally you are going to want to hit the BG with as much ENERGY as possible.  If you pull out the high school physics books, you'll come to find out E = (1/2)M*V^2.   (Where M = Mass, V = Velocity). . . . If you want'ed to compare hollow points of different weight and speed I would use the above equation as a base line.  Obviously which ever produces the greatest amount of energy would be the best. . . .

My high school didn't allow us to keep our books, but I doubt that formula is based on fps and grains of bullet weight (my guess is that it was mph and lbs., or kmph and kgrams).  I'll do some research on the formula and see what it would be for fps and grains.

Dallas_Dave:

. . . you can have a nuclear war head in .380 . . . .

You CAN???  Tell me more . . . .

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M D "Doc" Nugent - carcentric.com

carcentric:

. . . I doubt that formula is based on fps and grains of bullet weight (my guess is that it was mph and lbs., or kmph and kgrams).  I'll do some research on the formula and see what it would be for fps and grains. . . .

The one on the left has the fps/grains correction factor in it (speed is still expontially greater in importance than weight):

Muzzle Energy		Momentum In Pound Seconds
Weight of bullet (in grains) x velocity (in foot seconds) x velocity x 0.000002218 = energy in foot pounds.	*	Multiply the bullet weight in grains by the velocity at impact. Divide the product by 226,000 ( a gravimetric Constant).
Example: 100 grain bullet at 3000 ft/seconds > 100 x 3000 x
3000 x 0.000002218 = 1996 foot pounds energy.

In the one on the right, bullet weight and speed are of EQUAL importance.  Does a bullet that has a muzzle velocity of, say, 1000 fps actually only arrive at the target at 31 fps?  That would be the square root of 1000 fps. 

In my context (2-8 yards from the weapon), the bullet speed should still be pretty close to muzzle velocity, correct?

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M D "Doc" Nugent - carcentric.com

These are complicated models...  I tried to simplify. 

There are two types of energy, kinetic is the one you care about. 

It is probably fine to figure that muzzle velocity will equal target velocity. What I tried to get you to do above was to use the Energy numbers as a way to compare the different rounds.  With the idea that the greater the energy (calculated... not actual) the better the bullet.  (Assuming all other factors are equal primarily spread).  In the equation on the left, the only difference  from the one above is he had you calculate "actual" energy (that is why he added the adjusting constant...).  By removing the constant you can still use the calculated value as a way to compare bullet A to bullet B (ie, if calculated energy of A is greater than B then B is "better").  Because, you don't care what the actual energy is, just which one is hitting harder... (Get my point...  I am an engineer so I am genetically dispositioned to make stuff sound harder than it really is.)

The equation on the right appears to be using momentum instead of velocity (they are related...) but appears to be confusing you (and me...).  Stick with the one on the left, my state paid education says it easier and should get you the same result.

Does this help?

DD

Most 380 rounds have very little expansion or penetration, many post recommend loading a hot hollow point in chamber, followed by all fmj rounds in the magazine for penetration, and shoot straight.

Location, location, location; just like real estate.  A .22 LR in the right place beats a .50 that misses.  That said, you should choose the biggest round you can shoot well and is reliable in your gun.  A really fast, light bullet begins to loose velocity, and thus energy, when it leaves the barrel, and even more when it impacts the target.  Conversely, a heavy bullet will maintain its energy longer and deliver more to the target because of its mass.  More mass, more momentum, more penetration.

For my SD purposes, I chose Remington Golden Sabers in both .380 and 9 mm.  The .380, at 102 grains, is the heaviest round available from a major ammo manufacturer.  For the 9 mm, I like the 147 grain for the same reason.  A heavier bullet, although subsonic, will deposit more energy than a light one.  Of course, if you shoot well, it really doesn't matter - any good hollow point will do the job if you do yours.  And, like my CHL instructor said, shoot until you're sure the threat is neutralized.

Just my humble opinion.

 Their is no majic bullet. in 380 or any caliber Life isn't black and white neither are  ammo selections.

 The 380 had a rep as a terrible man stopper with ball ammo.  Why because like, 9mm and 38 super  ball just sailed thru target  doing little damage unless hit a bone.  HP were devolped to do 2 things  Stop bullet in the target and dump all the FTLBS of engery into target.  The expansion was a side bennie . It increased you chance of damage to a vital organ . Ball might miss it but expand the bullet a 1/4 " just might nick it.  

  Jacketed Hollow points  have always been iffy as to expansion  Clothing has clogged then turning tem in to ball .  Some time they just never open  other times some what. Look at the pictures of the  ND that was posted . This guy states at begining how great  these Federal 230gr HP are.  Now look at his pictures . The HP came apart as it went thru his leg.  It didn't hold togather in perfect mushroom .  If I am shooting some one with a pistol I want my bullet to stay togather . With a M-16  I want the bullet to frag . Lot of difference to 2900FPS and a 55 or so gr, bullet  Than a 900FPS 230 HP . The 2900FPS does cause the so called shock wave in body The pistol doesn't. But we still want bullet in body and as much engery as possible.

As stated the  HP works in a window of FPS To fast and may over expand  to slow might no open at all.  One of my problems with the 102 gr Remington is in one test I have . 5 rounds the spread in FPS was over a 100fps per sec. . Hornaday HP don't seem to have enough FPS loaded at factory level to open at all .  Silver tips well they open well but to slow and  lack good penteration.

Penteration  how much is enough   Well  some well knows writers  used to say anything over 7" was a waste .

FBI used to say 10" but now say 12 "+  Only 380 going to do 12" is ball or a failed HP. 7 to 10 is more like it. 

The reason for the 12" is you might need to shoot thru a hand or a arm.  . Police might their shooting are different from a CCW . They might also need to shoot thru walls windshields  and other assorted items.

  You on other hand as a civ. will likely  be close and  face to face. Feet  not yards.  Look at all the crime vidoes  you see on TV  The   attacker is holding 1 handed   and wide open for a frontal shot . You will more often than  not. Be drawing against a  drawn pistol or a knife . . Your attacker is betting you will submitt not resist. (he won't try that on a cop He knows cop is armed)   This is to your advantage  if you are quick enough.  The human mind can't focas on 2 things very well. Attacker attention is on robbery  not  your resistiance . Yours is on SD.  So when you react by resisting (drawing of weapon)  he is caught off guard. He must now react to you (surprise)  You must draw fire and move off line from attacker weapon.  Side step and keep fireing  

This is the 21' knife drill reversed. In that attacket charges with Knife in hand You must now react draw shoot in less than 1 1/2sec or you had. Even if you good unless you move of line he will run over you with the knife.   Above is YOU are makeing the attacker respon to you. Advantage home team.  

So  any HP that goes 7"+ should work in 380 if I am correct about above    I like DPX because it is copper no jacket to peal away  and has shown good expansion in test after test Thru clothing or not . Larger calibers thru windshields car doors still opening Not bothered by cloging.  Is it perfect and 100%  no . Nothing is .

 Remember  Know your weapon Know its strength and weakness Know you enemy weapon if possible fight with your weapons strength  and force him to his weapons weakness.

What was the question again.

 

 

 

 

  

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Bersa Thunder,
PPK/S,
1990 Colt Mustang,
380 Kel Tec
380's Rule

"Just say "Lay A Way"

"WWJBD" What Would James Bond Do?

"Hokey religions and plastic glocks are no match for a good 1911 at your side, kid."

Michael T made some good points above, especially on the penetration issue. That FBI 12 inch standard seemed like a lot to me too. If the bullet does not hit something solid, like bone, it is likely to pass right through.

But another consideration with the hollow point ammo is feeding problems. The T380 seems to tolerate HP ammo, but it is a good idea to run a hundred or so so rounds of your SD ammo through the gun to make sure it can digest them consistently. A hundred or so quality HP rounds can be EXPENSIVE. So which is better, the HP ammo with maybe only limited testing, or the old tried-and-true ammo you use at the range?

CharlieP:

Michael T made some good points above, especially on the penetration issue. That FBI 12 inch standard seemed like a lot to me too. If the bullet does not hit something solid, like bone, it is likely to pass right through.

But another consideration with the hollow point ammo is feeding problems. The T380 seems to tolerate HP ammo, but it is a good idea to run a hundred or so so rounds of your SD ammo through the gun to make sure it can digest them consistently. A hundred or so quality HP rounds can be EXPENSIVE. So which is better, the HP ammo with maybe only limited testing, or the old tried-and-true ammo you use at the range?

This is why I have stuck with the UMC 88gr JHP.  I can afford to shoot lots of them and have never had a failure with them.  I first tried the Gold Dot and got 2 FTFeed in the first 7.  I now carry a GDHP in the pipe and the UMCs in the mag. 

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Rod Smith

Great thread guys and  gals!!!   To  a newbie this  is  the stuff I need to review.

That figure of 1996 ft/lb energy is a bit above the .380 round,   .380 is somewhere around 165 ft/lb to   220 ft/lb energy.  Perhaps you might be interested in this link:  http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/ballistic-tables/

44 Mag has around 1600 to 1800 ft/lb at muzzle.  30-30 has about 1400 to 1800 at the muzzle as well.

 

The closeness at hand will mean you probably will have 99.98% of the energy available, as not enough wind resistance has occurred to slow it down much in that distance.

I've always like Hydra Shock as it had a post that created hydraulic pressure to expand the outer wall of the bullet in a quick manner.  I used to carry Black Talons years ago when I was on a Sheriff Office, but don't even think I have any of those left.  They worked well. 

Yesterday I saw a similar bullet at a local gun dealers (about 4 miles up the road)  that had a grove on the INSIDE of the hollow point.  They expanded a lot like the Black Talons, creating both a temporary and permanent wound cavity.  Broad heads in archery don't kill because of bullet shock.  They slice arteries and veins and cause mass blood loss.  Ditto with this bullet I saw yesterday, but compound it with shock action as well.

 

 

 

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Vern
http://vernsdidj.com Didgeridoo info and pictures
NRA member
Taurus 24/7 PRO .45 ACP, Bersa Thunder .380

"There are 10 kinds of people in the world. those that understand binary and those that do not."

This may or may not help but here is a web site that compares .380 ammo shot into water jugs.

It is interesting

http://stevespages.com/page8f380acp.html

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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check Made payable to 'The United States of America ' for an amount of 'up to and including my life.'

This is a must read for anybody wanting to know more about defensive ammo. It's not the feet persecond, foot pounds of energy that are important it's the depth of penetration and expansion of the projectile.

Wounding Factors and Effectiveness